{"id":612,"date":"2007-03-19T18:25:43","date_gmt":"2007-03-19T22:25:43","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/blogs.law.harvard.edu\/shlep\/2007\/03\/19\/the-florida-bar-and-you-the-people\/"},"modified":"2007-03-19T18:53:14","modified_gmt":"2007-03-19T22:53:14","slug":"the-florida-bar-and-you-the-people","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/archive.blogs.harvard.edu\/shlep\/2007\/03\/19\/the-florida-bar-and-you-the-people\/","title":{"rendered":"the Florida Bar and you the people"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>\u00a0<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" height=\"40\" alt=\"FloridaMap\" src=\"http:\/\/blogs.law.harvard.edu\/shlep\/files\/2007\/03\/floridaMap.jpg\" width=\"35\" \/>\u00a0 Earlier today, <a href=\"http:\/\/blogs.law.harvard.edu\/shlep\/2007\/03\/19\/document-prep-stores-walk-a-fine-line\/\">Rick Georges posted<\/a> about a newspaper article that focused on the\u00a0recent opening of several <a href=\"http:\/\/www.wethepeopleusa.com\/default.asp\">We the People<\/a> document preparation stores in the Tampa Bay area.\u00a0 See\u00a0\u201c<a href=\"http:\/\/blogs.law.harvard.edu\/shlep\/2007\/03\/19\/document-prep-stores-walk-a-fine-line\/\"><em>DIY stores walk fine line between law help, outlaw<\/em><\/a><em>: They can offer document prep but not advice<\/em>,\u201d <em>St. Petersburg Times<\/em>, by Carrie Weiner, March 19, 2007.\u00a0 For my money, you can get a more well-rounded picture of\u00a0We the People USA by reading two\u00a0additional articles:\u00a0\u00a0&#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/2004\/02\/15\/business\/yourmoney\/15prof.html?ex=1392181200&amp;en=9398ad35dcd11599&amp;ei=5007&amp;partner=USERLAND\">Moving In on New York Lawyers<\/a>&#8221; (<em>New York Times<\/em>, Feb. 15, 2004; discussed at <a href=\"http:\/\/blogs.law.harvard.edu\/ethicalesq\/2004\/02\/15\/for-profit-self-help-chain-invades-nyc\/\">f\/k\/a<\/a>); and &#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/money.cnn.com\/magazines\/fsb\/fsb_archive\/2004\/04\/01\/366651\/index.htm\">First Kill the Lawyers&#8230; &#8230; on the price for basic legal paperwork<\/a>&#8221; (<em>Money\/CNN<\/em>.com, April, 1, 2004).<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>For example: The <em>St. Pete Times<\/em> tells us that &#8220;The company has been the target of multiple lawsuits by lawyers, state bar associations and disgruntled customers who said its documents didn&#8217;t pass legal muster.&#8221;\u00a0 The <em>NYT<\/em> article also states that We the People\u00a0has been\u00a0the &#8220;target of 29 lawsuits by lawyers, state bar associations and other critics.&#8221; However, <em>NYT<\/em> adds the relevant fact not found in the <em>SPT<\/em> article: &#8220;Twenty-six of the [29] lawsuits have been dismissed or have been won by We the People.&#8221;\u00a0<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>My main focus in this post, however, is on the section of the <em>St. Pete Times<\/em> piece concerning the <a href=\"http:\/\/www.floridabar.org\">Florida Bar<\/a>:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>&#8220;Those looking to save money can already find a variety of resources, said Bruce Lamb, chairman of the Bar&#8217;s committee on the unlicensed practice of law.<\/p>\n<p>&#8220;Organizations such as Legal Aid can provide low-cost advice from an attorney, Lamb said. Those who want to represent themselves can get most of the documents offered by We the People at courthouses or through the Florida Bar for free, he said.<\/p>\n<p>&#8221; &#8216;The value of these places, when you look at it, is pretty low,&#8217; Lamb said.&#8221;<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" height=\"30\" alt=\"ProfPointer\" src=\"http:\/\/blogs.law.harvard.edu\/shlep\/files\/2007\/02\/pointerDudeNegF.gif\" width=\"40\" \/>It&#8217;s no secret that I am at times suspicious of the motives of the organized bar &#8212; especially when it comes to new sources of competition from outside (or even inside) the profession, and to the growth of the self-help law movement.\u00a0 See, e.g., our post &#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/blogs.law.harvard.edu\/shlep\/2006\/09\/08\/a-guide-or-a-guild-where-does-your-bar-group-stand\/\">a guide or a guild: where does your bar group stand?<\/a>&#8221; (Sept. 8, 2006).\u00a0 So, I was not very impressed by the Florida Bar&#8217;s UPL chairman&#8217;s suggestion that those who need &#8220;to save money&#8221; can get help from Legal Aid.\u00a0 As you know, only a small portion of the total population who cannot afford lawyers (see <a href=\"http:\/\/blogs.law.harvard.edu\/shlep\/2007\/03\/10\/the-dis-accessed-middle-class-of-north-america\/\">prior post<\/a>) is poor enough to be eligible for Legal Aid; and, of course, only a relatively small percentage of the eligible actually get a lawyer from Legal Aid.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>Even bar groups deserve the benefit of the doubt, however.\u00a0 So, I thought I&#8217;d follow up on Mr. Lamb&#8217;s apparent endorsement of <em>pro se<\/em> litigants using the legal\u00a0documents that are available at &#8220;courthouses or through the Florida Bar for free.&#8221;\u00a0\u00a0 I was especially optimistic, because (as we noted in &#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/blogs.law.harvard.edu\/shlep\/getting-self-help-help\/\">getting self-help help<\/a>&#8220;), the\u00a0Florida State Courts have a\u00a0nice little\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.flcourts.org\/gen_public\/family\/self_help\/index.shtml\">Self-Help Program<\/a>, that focuses on Family Court matters (<em>e.g<\/em>., divorce, custody, child support, paternity) &#8212; with <a href=\"http:\/\/www.flcourts.org\/gen_public\/family\/forms_rules\/index.shtml\">many forms<\/a>\u00a0created with the <em>pro se<\/em> litigant in mind, and\u00a0 a network of <a href=\"http:\/\/www.flcourts.org\/gen_public\/family\/self_help\/map.shtml\">local self-help centers<\/a> that provide a variety of onsite services.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" height=\"40\" alt=\"FloridaMapN\" src=\"http:\/\/blogs.law.harvard.edu\/shlep\/files\/2007\/03\/floridaMapN.jpg\" width=\"35\" \/>\u00a0 Just as a Florida resident who read the <em>SPT<\/em> article and wants to save money might do, I went to the <a href=\"http:\/\/www.floridabar.org\/\">Florida Bar website<\/a>, to find out how to obtain and intelligently use the available forms to represent myself.\u00a0 Here&#8217;s what I found [<em>warning<\/em>: it isn&#8217;t pretty]: <!--more--><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>there is nothing on the <a href=\"http:\/\/www.floridabar.org\/\">homepage<\/a> about court forms or self-help<\/li>\n<li>there is nothing on the <a href=\"http:\/\/www.floridabar.org\/DIVCOM\/PI\/WebNodes.nsf\/Nodes\/2A18E429E69155BF85256FEF005FDA9C\">Public Information page<\/a>\u00a0about court forms or self-help<\/li>\n<li>there is nothing on the <a href=\"http:\/\/www.floridabar.org\/tfb\/TFBConsum.nsf\/48e76203493b82ad852567090070c9b9\/7adaf9c3481ead7685256b2f006c53fa?OpenDocument\">Consumer Information page<\/a>\u00a0about court forms or self-help<\/li>\n<li>the\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.floridabar.org\/tfb\/TFBOrgan.nsf\/54E05CD1C9D5551885256B61000B58D2\/5B9C4E3ED83492F08525700A00732DC9\">Court Links page<\/a>\u00a0says nothing about self-help or court forms,<em>\u00a0but<\/em> we are\u00a0told to\u00a0&#8220;See our Directory\/Links page for links to <em>all of the court web sites available in Florida<\/em>.&#8221;\u00a0 Nevertheless,<\/li>\n<li>although the <a href=\"http:\/\/www.floridabar.org\/DIVCOM\/PI\/DirEntries.nsf\/WSubHeadings?OpenView\">Directory &amp; Links<\/a>\u00a0list is very long, it makes<em> no<\/em> mention at all of forms or\u00a0self-help centers\u00a0<\/li>\n<li>you can however find the Consumer Information pamphlet <a href=\"http:\/\/www.floridabar.org\/tfb\/TFBConsum.nsf\/840090c16eedaf0085256b61000928dc\/5f697171fa9fe3fd85256cbc00675148?OpenDocument\"><em>Protecting Yourself Against The Unlicensed Practice Of Law<\/em><\/a>, in which you are told that\u00a0&#8220;The Florida Bar is the gold-standard for protecting the public.&#8221;<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<blockquote><p>Note: I was pleased to see, however, that you can find the online Consumer Information pamplet <a href=\"http:\/\/www.floridabar.org\/tfb\/TFBConsum.nsf\/840090c16eedaf0085256b61000928dc\/3fe2f797f467eacf85256ed0005a8544?OpenDocument\">Limited Representation &#8211; A Guide for the Client<\/a>\u00a0(and a <a href=\"http:\/\/www.floridabar.org\/tfb\/TFBConsum.nsf\/840090c16eedaf0085256b61000928dc\/61d75a1dd75d5e9b85256ed000596b14?OpenDocument\">guide for attorneys<\/a>, too) on the Consumer Information page.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" height=\"28\" alt=\"graphClimbS\" src=\"http:\/\/blogs.law.harvard.edu\/shlep\/files\/2007\/03\/graphClimbS.jpg\" width=\"35\" \/>\u00a0 All this reminded me of an excerpt\u00a0from the <a href=\"http:\/\/money.cnn.com\/magazines\/fsb\/fsb_archive\/2004\/04\/01\/366651\/index.htm\"><em>Money\/CNN<\/em> article<\/a> that is mentioned above:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>&#8220;State bars, Ira Distenfield [CEO of We the People USA] says, will <em>eventually<\/em> lose the battle. &#8216;They&#8217;re trade associations,&#8217; he says. &#8216;Their job is to protect the interest of their dues-paying members. When a new industry is born, that&#8217;s going to take some business away from their protected turf.&#8217;\u00a0 (emphasis added)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>&#8220;Eventually&#8221; can be a long time.\u00a0 As usual, I urge readers to demand that their state governments do more to help the public take back their justice system; and I urge lawyers to get active in creating self-help centers and materials.\u00a0 Meanwhile, Floridians can:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>click here\u00a0for the Florida Courts <a href=\"http:\/\/www.flcourts.org\/gen_public\/family\/self_help\/index.shtml\">Self-Help Website<\/a>, which states: &#8220;Among other information, you will be able to access information for local self-help centers, free and low-cost legal aid, and family law forms for use in dissolution, paternity, child support, name change, and grandparent visitation cases. The forms are up-to-date, in engrossed (ready to use) format, with all amendments incorporated. All forms are provided free of charge by the Florida Supreme Court.&#8221;\u00a0<\/li>\n<li>go here for the Florida\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.flcourts.org\/gen_public\/family\/forms_rules\/index.shtml\">Family Court forms<\/a>\u00a0page, which says &#8220;The family forms below are designed for use by everyone, but are especially helpful to individuals who wish to represent themselves (pro se) in court matters related to family law.\u00a0 If you have a question about the content of the forms, or you can&#8217;t find the one you are looking for, please contact the Self-Help Center nearest you.&#8221;<\/li>\n<li>go here to find and find out about <a href=\"http:\/\/www.flcourts.org\/gen_public\/family\/self_help\/map.shtml\">local self-help centers<\/a>\u00a0and<\/li>\n<li>go here for information on Legal <a href=\"http:\/\/www.flcourts.org\/gen_public\/family\/self_help\/legal_aid.shtml\">Aid in Florida<\/a>\u00a0<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" height=\"28\" alt=\"sharkS\" src=\"http:\/\/blogs.law.harvard.edu\/shlep\/files\/2007\/01\/shark%20tiny%20gray.gif\" width=\"40\" \/>\u00a0\u00a0As we wrote in January <a href=\"http:\/\/blogs.law.harvard.edu\/shlep\/2007\/01\/25\/filling-in-a-quicken-will-for-a-nonagenarian-is-upl-in-sc\/\">in a posting<\/a> about the unauthorized practice of law in the context of will-making software: For more background on the long battle between UPL and self-help materials, and on efforts to define the practice of law in a consumer-friendly way, see:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>\u201c<a href=\"http:\/\/www.nolo.com\/pr_date.cfm\/ObjectID\/1A8281D7-40DA-45B8-ADF0E37CC58533B0\/returnTo\/PRbyCat\"><font color=\"#00418b\">Nolo v. Texas<\/font><\/a> \u2014 Self-Help Law and First Amendment Rights Protected\u201d (Oct. 1, 1999). This press release contains a brief summary of the battle between Nolo.com and the Texas bar \u2014 when Texas lawyers tried unsuccesfully a decade ago to ban Nolo\u2019s publications from being sold or distributed in the state, claiming they amounted to the unauthorized practice of law. <font face=\"Arial\" size=\"2\">[See <\/font><a href=\"http:\/\/blogs.law.harvard.edu\/shlep\/2007\/01\/25\/filling-in-a-quicken-will-for-a-nonagenarian-is-upl-in-sc\/#comment-583\"><font face=\"Arial\" color=\"#00418b\" size=\"2\">Comment 2<\/font><\/a><font face=\"Arial\" size=\"2\">, below,\u00a0for more details about <em>Nolo v. Texas<\/em>, as well as the battle over the ground-breaking bestseller <\/font><a href=\"http:\/\/www.amazon.com\/How-Avoid-Probate-Norman-Dacey\/dp\/0020081812\"><em><font face=\"Arial\" color=\"#00418b\" size=\"2\">How to Avoid Probate!,<\/font><\/em><\/a><font face=\"Arial\" size=\"2\"> by Norman Dacey.] <\/font><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.halt.org\/reform_projects\/freedom_of_legal_information\/unauthorized_practice_of_law\/\"><font color=\"#00418b\">HALT\u2019s UPL Project<\/font><\/a> (where the legal reform group\u00a0explains why the \u201cunauthorized practice of law\u201d should be limited to saying you are a lawyer when you are not.)<\/li>\n<li>The approach of the Federal Trade Commission and Department of Justice to defining the practic of law \u2014 <a href=\"http:\/\/www.usdoj.gov\/atr\/public\/comments\/200604.htm\"><font color=\"#00418b\">Remarks to the ABA<\/font><\/a> (2002)<\/li>\n<li>The postings and materials that are linked to <a href=\"http:\/\/blogs.law.harvard.edu\/ethicalesq\/unauthorized-practice-of-law\/\"><font color=\"#00418b\">f\/k\/a\u2019s Unauthorized Practice page<\/font><\/a>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><strong><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" height=\"40\" alt=\"FloridaMap\" src=\"http:\/\/blogs.law.harvard.edu\/shlep\/files\/2007\/03\/floridaMap.jpg\" width=\"35\" \/>\u00a0 p.s.<\/strong>\u00a0 On paper, Florida has the best ethics rules in the nation\u00a0to protect clients entering into contingency fee contracts in personal injury cases.\u00a0 Through <a href=\"http:\/\/www.flabar.org\/divexe\/rrtfb.nsf\/8bf68c7a6fda323085256bc800648cce\/d879f37d40cdf92485256bbc004b2fc3?OpenDocument\">Rule 4-1.5(f)<\/a>\u00a0of the Rules Regulating the Florida Bar, clients have a <em>Statement of Client\u2019s Rights<\/em> for Contingency Fees stating, among other things, that there is <em>no set percentage fee and that the client has the right to negotiate the fee level<\/em>.\u00a0 They also enjoy a 3-day \u201ccooling off\u201d period to reconsider after signing an agreement, and step-down maximum fee levels as the amount awarded increases.\u00a0 (see compilation <a href=\"http:\/\/blogs.law.harvard.edu\/ethicalesq\/stories\/storyReader$393\">at f\/k\/a<\/a>)\u00a0 Now, click on over to the Florida Bar&#8217;s <a href=\"http:\/\/www.floridabar.org\/tfb\/TFBConsum.nsf\/48e76203493b82ad852567090070c9b9\/afb630a0b709b85b85256b2f006c61d1?OpenDocument\">Attorney&#8217;s Fees pamphlet<\/a>\u00a0for consumers.\u00a0\u00a0Despite the length of the\u00a0contingency fee discussion, I dare you to\u00a0point\u00a0out\u00a0where the right to negotiate fee levels is mentioned, much less explained.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>\u00a0\u00a0 Earlier today, Rick Georges posted about a newspaper article that focused on the\u00a0recent opening of several We the People document preparation stores in the Tampa Bay area.\u00a0 See\u00a0\u201cDIY stores walk fine line between law help, outlaw: They can offer document prep but not advice,\u201d St. Petersburg Times, by Carrie Weiner, March 19, 2007.\u00a0 For [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":437,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[900],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-612","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-viewpoint"],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/archive.blogs.harvard.edu\/shlep\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/612","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/archive.blogs.harvard.edu\/shlep\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/archive.blogs.harvard.edu\/shlep\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/archive.blogs.harvard.edu\/shlep\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/437"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/archive.blogs.harvard.edu\/shlep\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=612"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/archive.blogs.harvard.edu\/shlep\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/612\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/archive.blogs.harvard.edu\/shlep\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=612"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/archive.blogs.harvard.edu\/shlep\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=612"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/archive.blogs.harvard.edu\/shlep\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=612"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}